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 Will the Euro survive, Yes or No

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willowsend
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PostSubject: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

[size=150:1io4w701]Bulgaria has decided to 'indefinitely' delay talks to join the euro

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Where does this leave the Leva being pegged against the Euro I wonder
Please read the bit about "
Things are so bad even Bulgaria won't join"
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:54 am

[size=150:b7sjh9fn]Britain draws up survival plans for life after the euro to avoid plunging into another recession

Stronger economies could contract by 25% if EU falls apart
Mounting fears Greece will default and have to leave euro
Moody's downgrades credit ratings of two French banks
France and Germany insist Greece is 'integral part' of euro
World markets are boosted but experts are unconvinced

By James Chapman and Hugo Duncan

Last updated at 8:47 AM on 15th September 2011

Britain is drawing up contingency plans for a catastrophic collapse of the euro which experts fear could plunge our economy back into a recession ‘beyond comprehension’.
Economists believe the EU would be unlikely to survive a disorderly break-up of the euro and say that even stronger economies could contract by as much as 25 per cent in the aftermath.
Amid a mounting sense of inevitability that Greece will default on its massive debts and be forced to leave the single currency, the U.S. urged EU governments to use ‘overwhelming force’ to address the debt crisis.

U.S. treasury secretary Tim Geithner, who will take the unusual step of attending a meeting of EU finance ministers in Poland tomorrow, admitted Washington had been ‘behind the curve’ in tackling its own financial crisis but urged Europe to act decisively.

Yesterday ratings agency Moody’s downgraded the credit ratings of two of France’s largest banks, Societe Generale and Credit Agricole, because of their exposure to Greek debt causing panic on French stock markets.
More...All out on November 30: Union chiefs plot wave of strikes to cripple country for months
Disgraced peer released early from expenses sentence is arrested again over more alleged fraud
Clegg slaps down Euro-doubters as Lib Dems suggest MORE taxpayer bailouts for Greece

The ratings agency left France’s largest bank, BNP Paribas, on review, saying its profitability and capital base gave it an adequate cushion to support its Greek, Portuguese and Irish exposure.

World markets rose sharply after European leaders vowed to help Greece avoid default in a bid to sooth trader jitters.
The leaders of Greece, France and Germany - in a telephone conference call - agreed Greece was an 'integral part' of the eurozone.
And Greece promised to stick to agreements on debt reduction - a condition of the further bailout package from other European nations.
The FTSE-100 was up almost 50 points in early trading. Overnight, Japan's Nikkei rose 1.5 per cent, South Korea's Kospi 0.6 per cent, Hong Kong's Hang Seng 0.5 per cent and Australia's ASX 200 0.8 per cent.

Benchmarks in Singapore, Taiwan and New Zealand also rose, although most Chinese stocks were unaffected.

Pulling together: Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel have insisted Greece is in 'integral part' of the euro

Moody's has downgraded Societe Generale and Credit Agricole because of their exposure to Greek debt

Yesterday, U.S. stocks saw their third day of gains in a row. The Dow Jones industrial average rose 140.88 points, or 1.3 per cent.
Uri Landesman, president of the New York hedge fund Platinum Partners, said worries over Greece have gone too far because it won't be allowed to default.
'They're just not going to let them [the Greeks] go under,' he said. 'That's just not happening. I think people have learned the lesson from letting Lehman Brothers fail.'
Despite today's reassurances, even the most die-hard pro-Europeans appear to accept that the eurozone is in terminal trouble.

Former Liberal Democrat leader Lord Ashdown, a long-time supporter of the single currency, asked in an interview with The Spectator whether he thought the euro could survive in its current form, replied: ‘No, I don’t.’

‘The most likely outcome is probably a core euro, a euro that has Germany, Austria, Finland and the Benelux countries in it – you’d have to have France in there for political reasons, even though economically they wouldn’t come up to the mark precisely – and maybe Sweden.

‘Then you have a core euro and you then create the institutions to govern the euro.’

Martin Callanan, Conservative leader in Brussels, said: ‘The thing is in absolute crisis. Everybody is panicking over here.
‘And it seems to me the least worst option is to accept the inevitable for Greece to default on its debt, leave the euro and devalue its currency and then give it space to restructure’.
But he warned that Britain could be caught in the fallout as the eurozone collapses.
Andrew Lilico, chief economist at analysts Europe Economics, said the collapse of the euro would almost certainly mean the end of the EU.
‘The EU is most unlikely to continue without the euro,’ he said. ‘Sudden and disorderly collapse of the EU would induce a massive further phase of recession.’
He referred to predictions by the Swiss bank UBS of a 20-25 per cent contraction in gross domestic product for strong countries and 50 per cent for weak countries.
‘I happen to think that the UBS figures are somewhat emotional,’ he said. ‘But it would certainly involve a recession on a scale beyond modern experience or comprehension in a Western democracy.’
In an extraordinary sign of alarm across the globe, five big developing countries said they were ready to discuss bailing out Europe.
The leaders of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa – the ‘BRICS’ countries – are to meet at the annual World Bank and International Monetary Fund summit next week to talk about providing emergency assistance.
The head of the World Bank said the global economy had entered a new ‘danger zone’ and that the ‘time for muddling through’ was over.
Robert Zoellick said: ‘Unless Europe, Japan, and the United States can face up to responsibilities they will drag down not only themselves but the global economy. They have procrastinated for too long on taking the difficult decisions, narrowing what choices are now left to a painful few.’

Treasury sources believe that Germany is now resigned to the eurozone breaking down in its current form and a new European ‘inner core’ being created. There is an increasing expectation that this will mean a new EU treaty.
Downing Street confirmed that officials were working on ‘contingency plans’ aimed at trying to insulate Britain from a full-blown crisis in the eurozone, but refused to speculate about what form they would take.
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, in a speech on the economy, warned: ‘The economic context is much worse than before. Yes, facts have changed.’

Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls warned of the danger of a ‘massive economic catastrophe’ on a larger scale than the banking crash in 2008.
‘The issue now isn’t really Greece, it is what is happening in Spain and in particular Italy,’ he said.

Polish finance minister Jacek Rostowski, who will chair a meeting of EU finance bosses tomorrow, said the EU could be destroyed by the debt crisis.
But the president of the European Commission, Jose Manuel Barroso, insisted that the answer to the growing threat to the euro was a more, and not less, integrated EU


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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:28 am

[size=50:1x9x6hob]Daily Telegraph

[size=150:1x9x6hob]Greece will remain in the eurozone

Greece will remain in the eurozone, says French president Nicolas Sarkozy and German chancellor Angela Merkel
European leaders have assured Greece its future remains within the eurozone but warned it must implement the tough austerity measures set out as part of its rescue plan.

Greece confirmed it was determined to meet all obligations agreed with international leaders in exchange for the EU/IMF bail-out
Speaking after a conference call with Greek leader George Papandreou, German chancellor Angela Merkel and French president Nicolas Sarkozy moved on Wednesday night to calm fears Greece could be forced out of the eurozone.
In comments shortly after the call, the North European leaders said they were convinced Greece's future was as a member of the single currency.
"
Putting in place commitments of the [bail-out] programme is essential for the Greek economy to return to a path of lasting and balanced growth,"
they said.
In response, Greece confirmed it was determined to meet all obligations agreed with international leaders in exchange for the European Union/International Monetary Fund bail-out. Earlier in the day, Olli Rehn, EU commissioner for economic and monetary affairs, said a Greek default or exit from the eurozone would "
carry dramatic economic and social and political costs"
.
News of the talks came hours after European Commission president Jose Manuel Barroso vowed to bring proposals for the introduction of "
eurobonds"
as part of a concerted effort he described as a "
fight for the economic and political future of Europe"
.
He insisted creating the first bond issued backed by all 17 eurozone members "
could be implemented within the terms of the current treaty"
.
In a passionate speech to the European Parliament, Mr Barroso admitted even the bond - an idea staunchly resisted by Germany - would "
not bring an immediate solution"
to the debt crisis but would "
come as an element of a comprehensive approach to further economic and political integration"
.
He added: "
This is a fight for the jobs and prosperity of families in all our member states. This is a fight for the economic and political future of Europe. This is a fight for what Europe represents in the world."

European markets rebounded as traders felt politicians were ready to take radical steps to end the crisis. But it was a choppy day that included downgrades of two of France's biggest banks;
warnings of an imminent Greek default;
and comments from Chinese premier Wen Jiabao on Beijing's support of the eurozone.
In Germany the DAX soared 3.4pc;
France's CAC was up 1.9pc, while the Stoxx Europe 600 rose 1.5pc. In London the FTSE 100 gained 1pc.
At one point, markets dipped dramatically on rumours the Austrian parliament had failed to ratify the expansion of the European Financial Stability Facility bail-out fund, but recovered when it emerged the decision had just been delayed.
Confidence was also lifted by Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi winning a confidence vote on a €54bn (£47bn) austerity plan aimed at stemming a debt crisis threatening the eurozone's third largest economy.
Moody's Investor Services downgraded Credit Agricole and Societe Generale and put BNP Paribas on negative watch on concerns of their exposure to Greek debt. Shares in the banks plunged - SocGen fell 10pc at one point.
However, Christian Noyer, Governor of the Bank of France defended the banks, pointing to the €200bn of spare collateral at the central bank. He added: "
The recent stress test exercise clearly showed that they have the capacity to withstand a severe crisis."
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:46 pm

I can't see the euro lasting much longer lets face it there isn't anything anyone can do to save it this is one of the problems with a currency that isn't linked or dependant on anything else in this world of ours. Take a look at the article below .

The European Union will not allow a Greek default or drop-out from the Euro zone, according to EU Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs Olli Rehn.

At the same time, however, debt-stricken Greece needs to do more to implement the promises it has made to its international creditors, Rehn stressed on Thursday.

"
An uncontrolled default or exit of Greece from the Euro zone would cause enormous economic and social damage, not only to Greece but to the European Union as a whole, and have serious spillovers to the world economy,"
Olli Rehn said according to the text of his speech at the Peterson Institute in Washington, as cited by Dow Jones.

"
We will not let this happen,"
added the EU Commissioner.

Nonetheless, he warned that Greece must do more to justify the EUR 109 B bailout package that EU ministers agreed on back in June 2011, after the initial EUR 110 B from 2010.

"
A condition for the new program is that Greece implements all the corrective measures required, without any wavering,"
Rehn said. "
In the past couple of weeks Greece has gone a long way toward meeting these demands, but we are not quite there yet."


Rehn's statement comes a day after the Greek Parliament approved a new painful austerity package in order to secure the next tranche of foreign aid under the bailout plans.

He added that Ireland and Portugal, the other countries to receive aid, are doing much better. He said the Irish are on their way "
to sustained recovery."


Rehn also warned of a continued slowdown in growth in the Euro zone saying that while year-on-year growth would likely be around 1.7% in 2011, growth will reach a "
virtual standstill"
toward the end of the year.

"
While we do not forecast a recession or double dip for Europe, the change in the outlook is both disappointing and worrying,"
he said.

Rehn said that there is little room for European nations to prime the fiscal pumps to try to restore growth. He said in some countries "
the sovereigns either do not have access to market financing or it is becoming prohibitively expensive."


For other countries, he said, long-term fiscal challenges like an ageing population also make fiscal consolidation "
well-advised."


Rehn acknowledged that crisis management in the Euro zone and communication had added to the region's problems--often proving "
rather belated, piece-meal and not well communicated."


However, he said the substance of the measures taken to improve the fiscal outlook and to shore up the banking system was "
better than their reputation."
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:29 pm

Sorry folks, a rather long post but it could be important to the future of Bulgaria
It is certainly in line with our own poll

[size=55:1y05hoso]Sofia Echo

According to the latest findings of a public opinion poll by the Open Society Institute – Sofia, there is a growing strong majority in Bulgaria opposing entry into the euro zone and replacing Bulgaria’s lev with the euro.
Fifty–two per cent of respondents did not support switching to the euro and only 25 per cent were in favour. The two–to–one ratio for the opponents of euro zone accession is strong enough in itself, but the rapid pace of the change in attitude is also impressive. Just half a year ago the difference was much narrower, and in 2008/09, the desire to adopt the euro was dominating.

But this does not exhaust the issue. There is an even firmer position against euro zone membership if Bulgaria has to participate with substantial funds in saving Western European countries.

Almost 57 per cent answered that that they would not approve of Bulgaria's entry into the euro zone if this was the case, while only 13 per cent support the accession into the euro zone under such conditions.

It should be taken into account that this is exactly the set of circumstances, at this moment, facing Bulgaria and its future membership in the euro zone. The permanent European Stability Mechanism (ESM), which is expected to become functional from 2013 onwards, envisages a significant financial burden for all countries in the euro zone.

The biggest financial burden will be borne by the poorest countries because of the formula of the mechanism, which depends on the GDP and the population numbers of the contributing country. In that regard, Bulgaria will have to participate with a sizeable contribution if it enters the euro zone and this is exactly what Bulgarians oppose.

A similar development can be observed in the rest of the new member states that are yet to adopt the euro as their currency. According to the latest Eurobarometer data, there is a growing tendency of decreasing support for replacing the national currency with the euro.

In contrast to 2009, when the majority supported the introduction of the euro, now most interviewees would not be happy with such a development. The expectations from the negative effects of euro zone entry are increasing.

How did we get to here?
During the first decade since the creation of the euro, the common currency has been perceived in Central and Easter Europe, Bulgaria included, as a source of economic stability. Accession into the euro zone was a priority for the new member states as this step was perceived as an additional guarantee of avoiding the political manipulation of money and avoiding imprudent budget policies. The euro was perceived as a sufficiently stable external anchor for the economic policies of the new member states.

The peak of this perception of the euro was reached at the beginning of the global financial crisis and, in 2008/09, Bulgaria's proposed entry into the euro zone had also an anti–crisis dimension, creating the conditions for the new member states to achieve faster recovery.

This was the ideal opportunity for a rapid enlargement of the euro zone as the citizens of the new member states were ready to rapidly adopt the common European currency. Nothing of the kind happened, however.

Furthermore, the countries of the euro zone and the European Central Bank demanded that the candidates for membership should cover all Maastricht criteria – despite the fact that none of the euro zone members were adhering to them.

That was yet another case of employing double standards: the candidate countries had to meet all the criteria, while the rules did not apply for the euro zone members and they were not implementing them. Beyond that, it was proof of lacking common sense – because the euro zone stability requires the implementation of the rules inside the zone and not only before entering it.

At that time, Western Europe saw Eastern Europe as risky and believed that it would be hit the hardest by the crisis and that these countries did not deserve euro zone membership. Western media discussed doomsday scenarios, including how the effect of the crisis in the new member states might affect the whole of the EU. The lack of understanding of the situation in the new member states brought about a policy of delaying euro zone enlargement. The policy followed the pattern of "
let’s see how you are going to survive the crisis and then we can think whether you can be accepted to the euro zone."


An important consideration was ignored though – that if the new member states managed to deal with the crisis on their own, their desire to join the euro zone will diminish. The longer they have been coping successfully with their own currency and their own economic policy, the less they would want to enter the euro zone.

We have warned in October 2009 that this may be the last chance for euro zone enlargement. The longer non-euro zone countries survived the crisis with their own currency, the less likely they were to replace local currencies with the euro.

This is exactly what has been happening over the past two years. In addition, the euro began to lose its attractiveness as a source of stability because of the unfavourable political developments. The euro zone cannot manage with tightening budget discipline in member states and, as a result, there has been pressure on the European Central Bank to monetise the debt.

At the start of the crisis, in 2008/09, there was a tilt towards the imprudent increase of budget deficits and now the euro is in the throes of a debt crisis. The resulting European rescue funds being created will put the heaviest burden on the financially stable and poor countries. All these considerations have contributed to decrease the attractiveness of the euro as a source of stability.

Everyday effects
First, the Greek rescue and the debt problems of other countries that have adopted the euro are all over the daily news. Greece is especially indicative because of the non–compliance with the IMF and EU agreement, the difficulties that the euro zone has in imposing budget discipline on Greece and the ever-growing rescue package. The problem is not so much in Greece’s problems – the trouble is that they are not being solved and this is periodically giving birth to new rumours about default, creating chaos not only in Greece itself, but also among its creditors.

Second, there was no benefit from the high inflation, which is a direct result of loose monetary policy and low central interest rates. While during the 1990s inflation in Eastern Europe was caused by the countries' own imprudent monetary and budget policies, now inflation comes from the outside, from the big central banks and the big budget deficits of the West.

Accession to the euro zone will not solve the problem with inflation and rising raw material prices as they are not a result of local Eastern European problems.

Third, the creation of a rescue fund, to which all euro zone members will contribute significant sums, is a sort of entry fee for the new members. What is more, it is inexplicable why the poor countries should contribute to saving the rich ones, especially when the amounts are disproportionally higher in terms of GDP.

Europe still perceives itself as a club of the rich without taking into consideration that not all EU countries are such – the divergent point of view of the poor new member states continues to be overlooked. The poor countries are forced to act as if they were rich and at the same time in public perceptions the euro is turning from a source of stability into a burden
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:33 pm

[size=55:g4ul1fya]Sofia echo

Imagine a world without the Euro

For the fathers of the Euro, the end of the Cold War in 1990 was a time for worry as well as celebration. As they looked to the future, they were also obsessed with the continent's bloody past. Would a new Europe, and especially a reunified Germany, reawaken old nationalist sentiments and lead again to the danger of war?

Germany's Helmut Kohl and France's Francois Mitterrand – and just about every European leader since – saw a common currency as essentially a political project, meant to cement European unity and remove that danger. For them, a world without the Euro would have been a world increasingly threatened by conflict and perhaps even war.

Because of these fears, the Euro project was rushed through without key agreement on the common political institutions that would have turned Europe into a truly unified economic zone. As a result, each country follows its own economic policy;
Greece spends, while Germany saves. And markets have been quick to focus on the weakest links, threatening the entire Euro by nearly driving countries such as Greece and Portugal to bankruptcy.

War would not have come to Europe, with or without the Euro. A prediction made by Harvard economist Martin Feldstein in 1997 seems closer to reality. He argued that the introduction of the Euro would lead to major friction within the European Union, because the problems in maintaining a common currency among so many countries would create confrontations and a rebirth of nationalism.

Feldstein was right. The current Euro crisis has frayed nerves so much that Europeans have become more aggressive and even nationalistic again.

The polite tone cultivated for decades by EU partners has disintegrated into a tirade of insults. Germans have called the Greeks lazy, corrupt and just plain stupid. The news media in Germany gleefully point out Greek billionaires who pay no taxes, workers who retire at 50 and harbours filled with the yachts of the idle rich. German politicians have suggested that Greece sell some islands to repay its debt. In return, Greeks have pulled out the Nazi card, claiming that the Germans owe them billions in wartime reparations.

The other fear in 1990 was that, without the Euro, a reunified Germany would again dominate the continent. If Germany gave up its currency, France would support its reunification;
the Euro would help keep Berlin tied to Europe. German Chancellor Angela Merkel never tires of repeating this mantra – "
If the Euro fails, the entire European project will be at stake"
– when she calls for another bailout of Greece or Portugal or whoever else is on the brink.

But in the past 20 years, the opposite has happened. The Germans reformed their economy. Today, instead of being controlled by the French, they are acting independently as they call the shots in an EU of 500 million people.

Without the Euro, Germany would still be Europe's most powerful country, but it would not have the multiplier of a common currency. Using the Euro was the equivalent of Americans maxing out their credit cards. Being able to borrow at low German rates helped create real estate bubbles in Spain and Ireland and sent the Greeks and Portuguese on a spending spree.

It is Germany that has profited most from the profligacy of other Europeans, who take 75 per cent of its exports. Even if Greece goes bankrupt, those Mercedes and BMWs were bought with cash borrowed from German banks. The profits need not be sent back.

So without the Euro, there would probably have been less conspicuous consumption, and Germany might not have become the powerhouse it is today. But there could have been another important consequence. Europe might not have contributed as significantly to the 2008 financial crisis.

European banks wanted to find higher returns for the profits they were making by lending all that money to Greece and their other southern neighbours. So what did they do? They bought hundreds of billions of dollars worth of sub-prime mortgages and went through a real crisis in 2007 and 2008. European banks are now foundering again as their exposure to the government debt of countries such as Greece threatens further big losses. That is partly why central banks in Europe and the United States promised this month to pump more dollars into European banks to help them pay their debts.

And that's the reason US treasury secretary Timothy Geithner went to Poland to try to jawbone the Europeans into actually doing something about their problems. He invited himself to one of the many crisis meetings of European finance ministers, who are looking desperately for ways to calm things down. But Geithner severely misjudged the mood. He was sent packing, with instructions to clean up his own act before giving Europeans unwanted advice.

Geithner's mistake was to think that the ministers were talking about banking or deficits – or about money at all. They were really still talking about the war and the fears that motivated Kohl and Mitterrand. Geithner didn't understand the secret code. The meeting was not about action but about how best not to do anything drastic.

This is perhaps the most important implication of the way the Euro was set up. Rather than being kept free of politics, as was originally intended, management of the currency has become a political football knocked back and forth by the growing resentments between richer and poorer Europeans. The poorer countries reject the austerity measures necessary to meet German standards. The Germans refuse to take the steps necessary to build a true economic community. The result is a stand-off.

Instead of acting decisively, as Geithner demanded, European governments feel limited by their commitment to "
Europe"
to taking small steps that will not endanger the balance within the EU. This overwhelming fear of internal conflict is the real legacy of World War 2, one that has burdened the European Union since its birth in 1957. European politicians may not be experts on finance, but they do know their voters. Doing nothing is better than risking hard-won stability.

Would Europe be better off without the Euro? Perhaps. Globalisation would have still decimated its weaker economies, and even without the easy borrowing in the Euro zone, smaller southern members of the EU would probably be facing some sort of economic crisis. But if the euro hadn't been implemented as a political project in a Europe not ready for a common currency, experts could probably clean up such a situation fairly fast. But now, they can't. Because in the end, such decisions are still about the war.

* John Kornblum, senior counsellor with the international law firm Noerr LLP in Berlin, served as the US ambassador to Germany from 1997 to 2001.

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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:41 am

I'm not happy about this news I read today in the Dutch news nl, I can't see how this is going to help at all its just good money after bad if you ask me

Euro emergency fund gets Dutch vote

Parliament voted on Thursday evening to raise the Dutch contribution to the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) from €56bn to €98bn.

The governing parties liberal VVD and Christian Democrats were joined by opposition parties Labour, left-wing liberals D66, green party GroenLinks and fundamentalist Christians SGP in voting for the increase. Only the government's alliance party PVV and the Socialists voted against.

The EFSF is the European emergency fund that supports failing euro zone countries. Ireland and Portugal have already received money from the fund and it will also be used for a second bail-out for Greece.

The increase in the Dutch contribution was agreed by European leaders in July and the Netherlands is the 15th member to vote it through. Malta and Slovakia will vote next week.

The Dutch upper chamber will vote on the increase on Tuesday.
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:54 pm

[size=50:2keiizqw]Daily Telegraph

[size=150:2keiizqw]Greece to hold referendum on EU debt deal

Greece is to hold a referendum on whether to accept the rescue package from the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund troika.

George Papandreou has announced that there will be a Greek referendum to approve the EU bail-out deal which would impose a 50pc haircut on its creditors. Responding to the riots that followed last week's proposal as well as dissent from within his own Socialist party, Prime Minister George Papandreou said: "
The command of the Greek people will bind us. Do they want to adopt the new deal, or reject it? If the Greek people do not want it, it will not be adopted."
Staging a referendum threatens to throw the eurozone further into crisis as the majority of Greeks object to the bail-out, according to a survey published last week.

If Greece were to reject the plan, which requires deep spending cuts, it would risk a full-scale default and possible ejection from the euro. The country could even run out of money to pay civil servants or state pensions if the troika decided to pull the plug. European leaders and the IMF have struck a deal that would see banks take a 50pc writedown on Greek loans, cutting the country's debt by up to €100bn, alongside a €130bn international rescue effort on top of the existing €110bn package. No dates have been set for the referendum, which would include a confidence vote in the government, but it could reportedly be held in January.

Oops, here we go, is this the beginning of the end for the Euro??
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:10 pm

[size=50:1wd6j9xh]Daily Telegraph

[size=150:1wd6j9xh]Fast cars and loose fiscal morals:

There are more Porsches in Greece than taxpayers declaring 50,000 euro incomes.

The Porsche Cayenne: more common in Greece than people who admit earning €50,000
Jubilation about the German deal to save the euro could prove short-lived if fresh news of Greek tax evasion gains wider currency. There are more Porsche Cayennes registered in Greece than taxpayers declaring an income of 50,000 euros (£43,800) or more, according to research by Professor Herakles Polemarchakis, former head of the Greek prime minister’s economic department.

While German car workers may take pride in this evidence of their export success, German taxpayers may be less keen to bail out a nation whose population appears to take such a cavalier approach to paying its fiscal dues. Never mind all that macroeconomic talk about deficit distress, many Greeks are still plainly riding high on the hog. Something can’t be right when the modest city of Larisa, capital of the agricultural region of Thessaly with 250,000 inhabitants, has more Porsches per head of the population than New York or London.

Perhaps the penny – or the euro – is already dropping, because Professor Polemarchakis writes that Larissa “is the talk of the town in Stuttgart, the cradle of the German automobile industry, and, particularly, in the Porsche headquarters there”, since it “tops the list, world-wide, for the per-capita ownership of Porsche Cayennes”.

“The proliferation of Cayennes is a curiosity, given that farming is not a flourishing sector in Greece, where agricultural output generates a mere 3.2pc of Gross National Product (GNP) in 2009 – down from 6.65pc in 2000 – and transfers and subsidies from the European Commission provide roughly half of the nation’s agricultural income. “A couple of years ago, there were more Cayennes circulating in Greece than individuals who declared and paid taxes on an annual income of more than 50,000 euros.”

Well, there's a surprise!! How many other EU countries with citizens not paying their tax!!!


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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:57 am

[size=50:1h0q8ni1]Daily Telegraph

[size=150:1h0q8ni1]Eurozone split 'would destroy single market’
The entire European single market could collapse if countries are forced to leave the euro, the head of the European Union has said.

The warning from Herman Van Rompuy came after David Cameron said there was now a “big question mark over the future of the eurozone”.
Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, is next week expected to back proposals to change European treaties to allow countries to leave the euro.
French and German officials are understood to have begun discussing how countries such as Greece and Italy could be forced out of the eurozone if they refuse to cut public spending and borrowing.

However, Mr Van Rompuy, the president of the European Council, said: “Let us be clear: we will not prune the eurozone to a more selective club.
“That would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the European political pact, as embodied in the treaties. “If the eurozone’s integrity would not be preserved, one should not take the continued functioning of the internal market for granted.” Yesterday, there was some respite in the market turmoil that has swept the world over the past few days following political developments in Italy and Greece.

There is growing optimism that Italy’s economic collapse may be averted and Silvio Berlusconi is expected to step aside as prime minister today after austerity plans are formally approved. After months of dithering by his fractured coalition, the Senate, the upper house of parliament, voted to approve the multi-billion-pound package of spending cuts by an overwhelming majority of 156 to 12.

The passing of the budget measures helped calm the financial markets, with the cost of Italian government borrowing falling sharply to 6.6 per cent, having risen to an unsustainable 7.5 per cent earlier in the week. European stock markets rose by more than three per cent.

However, investors are braced for further turbulence next week as up to 100 MPs from Mr Berlusconi’s party, including several of his ministers, are reported to be opposed to the new government before it has even been formed, adding to concerns that the party could be torn apart over the issue.

Another week or two then until the Euro goes down the Swanee
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Andy
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:00 pm

To be honest with or without the euro we are all going to be in deep S**T
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cheekychops
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:56 pm

Can somebody please tell me why the pound is dropping in value against the euro.Could it be that the £50 million a day and the billions the uk government has handed them on plate for bailouts is keeping the euro afloat.Time for the people of the uk to wake up to the fact that Cameron,Clegg,and even milliband all sing from the same song sheet when it comes to the EU.Yes there are some rebels but even they are not commited enough and when push comes to shove they will side with the government.France and Germany have been raking it in while the rest of the eurozone go,s broke,they have suffered a mere tremor in this economic crisis and its none eurozone countries propping them up.
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itchyfeet
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:29 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Can somebody please tell me why the pound is dropping in value against the euro.Could it be that the £50 million a day and the billions the uk government has handed them on plate for bailouts is keeping the euro afloat.Time for the people of the uk to wake up to the fact that Cameron,Clegg,and even milliband all sing from the same song sheet when it comes to the EU.Yes there are some rebels but even they are not commited enough and when push comes to shove they will side with the government.France and Germany have been raking it in while the rest of the eurozone go,s broke,they have suffered a mere tremor in this economic crisis and its none eurozone countries propping them up.

Well cheekchops you have asked the same question I have asked friends of mine and none of them have an answer for it either. One thing is certain and that is governments "
play the field"
with currency to either keep the currency rate at what they want or to make some "
dosh"
out of it! Sorry . . . the south Londoner in me came out that time!! Here in Turkey the same currency game has been played for the past two years at least, the currency value of the pound drops every Friday afternoon without fail and hey-ho every Monday the £ rate pops up in value again. You can't tell me that there isn't something going on in the background that we know nothing about.

The Turkish government actually owned up to it a few weeks ago, in their words "
it was to keep the Lira low in value to other countries to encourage exports from Turkey."
So there you have it, what other government is going to hold their hands up and say the same thing . . . none I guess. You can be sure that our Mr Cameron is doing the same thing as Turkey and keeping the pound low for the same reason.

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Carmen
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:08 pm

the German politicians seem to be 'calling the shots' in the EU at the moment. Political power based on economic power, or possibly even replacing economic power...but is that really what the German people want, for all their hard work and economic success to pay for the once dormant lofty dreams of German political leaders to be in charge, de facto, of a European superstate? the creation of the Euro was, for some, a hope of a better economic future but for others it was a bribe and an inducement to sell out and lose a vital part of their national identity...to what end? a better standard of living? an earlier and easier retirement? a more peaceful Europe? BUT, for those whose desires aren't motivated by personal wealth or comfort, but are motivated by 'grandiose' political schemes the creation of the Euro HAD to take place in order for there to be an eventual European political superstate. Without the single currency there can't be and won't be the 'United States of Europe'..
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Blink
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:41 pm

The Germans actually pay almost 50% MORE than the uk. Perhaps a better question would be just what benefits do the Germans get? Germany shows just what a country can achieve if it takes full advantage of the single market. Britain gets the benefit of 40% or more of its trade being with the EU and if we actually did something to modernise and develop our economy, we could get the same benefits as Germany. You notice the Germans don't whinge about their high net contributions! .The reason the Germans aren't squealing about their contributions is because they have been coining it in from the rate the Euro was set at. If they had kept the Deutsch-mark they would have been far less competitive and their exports would be lower. The markets are turning their attention to the Germans now, cue the end of the economic miracle. Merkel continues to dither and will be punished for it.
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LisA
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PostSubject: Re: Will the Euro survive, Yes or No   Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:18 pm

I suspect that actually Germany maybe panicking that their revised master plan for European domination maybe failing? They may also be attempting to provoke, or intimidate, some disruption that they can ultimately exploit!! Very interesting times ahead . I just hope that we can remain strong and united for OUR best interests.
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