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 The EU and Expats

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willowsend
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PostSubject: The EU and Expats   Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:38 pm

Now here is an interesting topic to get our teeth into. Let's have a debate on the pro's and con's regarding this subject ie:- what impact will it have on the economy, border controls, passports, tourism, EU parliament, banking and areas related to finances, etc etc
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Andy
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:14 pm

Forecast. UK will not leave but we will see precious little foreign investment until the issue is closed, in 2015 if the Conservatives lose, or 2018 if they win.

Quadruple dip anyone? Or, to mix my metaphors, let's all jump in the dark, never mind if the tide has gone out!

Oh deary me! It's too late for me but my children have internationally marketable qualifications in patent law and IT, though I doubt I will be seeing so much of my grandchildren.

Cameron has the firmness of purpose of Sylvia Plath, but without the talent.
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Daisy
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:16 pm

People complain that they don't know enough about the EU. Some people think that the EU doesn't affect them.

Train fares are rising because of the EU. HS2 is EU policy. Post Offices closed because of EU policy. Almost everything that we don't want happens because of the EU. Our political leaders have a policy of taking the flack for unpopular EU interventions so that we don't realise the extent to which the EU controls and destroys our way of life. Don't believe me?

The postal service was opened to the EU single market. Government subsidies had to stop so rural POs had to close. The PO had to give up its lucrative business to business market to 27 foreign companies from across the EU. They collect, sort and frank the mail and the PO delivers it for 14p per item.

Train fares? Same story. Transport is an EU competence which means they make the decisions on roads, sea, air and railway policy. They are creating the single market for rail transport so government subsidies must stop. Fares must go up and rural stations will close. Foreign train companies must have access to the market and all EU train drivers will have a common training.

Fast rail travel will link all European cities and HS2 is written into the EU policy known as Ten-T.

Every aspect of our lives is controlled by the EU. It is all there in the EU web sites. Don't take my word for it, look it up for yourself. It may shock you to find the truth.

Some of you may welcome all these initiatives. That is not the point. The point is that you will never be consulted and if you don't agree with the policies you can never ever vote out the people in charge. s
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davshaz
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:22 pm

The Conservatives will almost certainly lose the next election (thank god for that) but the referendum question will remain. Now that this can of worms has been opened it is difficult to close. Simply because the Tories are now likely to campaign for a referendum for every election. So the question after 2020 will be: "
are the Tories gonna get back into power, and will they then hold the promised referendum?"
- the uncertainty therefore remains from election to election.

The only way to take the wind out of their sails now is to hold the referendum and achieve a "
no"
majority. Labor and the Lib Dems would therefore be well advised to invest time and effort into a pro-EU campaign to educate the people about the EU.

Throw in a couple of alibi reforms and the "
no"
vote should be secured. This tedious question is then off the tables once and for good.

Otherwise of course if the vote is "
yes"
then that too would be an interesting lesson for the history books. With Scotland independent and England isolated - has there ever been a better argument to start investing more in quality education?
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Brian1
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:27 pm

I don't mind listening to a reasoned argument about all this but in the midst of an economically chaotic period globally and in the EU? Japan has had two and a half decades of austerity. where will we be after 25 years of austerity? Will we have a financial sector? fact is no one knows how all this will fall out. To be convinced about our future let alone take action now is delusion on a big scale.
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willowsend
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:21 pm

Here is what Novinite have reported, Interesting stuff
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speedgunner
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:35 am

My opimion only but I cannot see Britain ever leaving the EU even on a vote as I read in the Daily Mail a poll was held and now 70% of Brits wish to stay in the EU, how accurate this is I have no idea after all it was "
Th Daily Mail"
! But in reality if Britain were to leave I think the economy would suffer as many business parterships have been made with other EU countries and whether this would affect these partnerships to a lesser or greater degree I don't know, but some change of agreements would take place.I was against us joining the EU from the start being British and all that but had no other reason to reject joining the EU but now we have been in for a number of years I think it would be foolish to pull out now.Links and ties have been made over the years and have benifited the British economy through free trade with other European countries.We know that the Brussles can be a pain with some of their petty regulations and can be very annoying but we as a Nation have been tried and tested by the likes of Tony Blair Gordon Brown and now this Tory upstart of a Priminister.For us ex pats here in Bulgaria I don't know what the effect would be if Britain left the EU but those of you who were here before Bulgaria joined the EU in 2007 would be able to tell us whether there would be any major change or not in our position here.
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chrisbriggs
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:10 am

Camerons comments about giving voters a referendum on Europe are just hot air. It is a puerile attempt to stay in power. Although it has its faults the EU is essentially a force for good (And I never thought I would say that). Britain recieves far more from Europe than it puts in. The area I used to live in, Merseyside, has benefited greatly from EU investment, sadly this investment should have been put in place by our own governments but they weren't forthcoming and Merseyside along with other northern areas suffered greatly. We will never leave the EU now as it is not in our interests. Chinese, Japanese and American investors not only choose to set up factories etc in the UK because of the workforce but also because it offers them a way into the European market. If you join a club you cant pick and choose which rules you choose to stick to.
Ray
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Blink
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:27 am

On the whole the conservative, neo-liberal viewpoint is that countries should compete with each other. However that means (in the long run) a race to the bottom which in the end will leave a destitute population working 24/7 for a few mega-rich owners of capital, with no social security, pension or health care.
The EU was founded on largely social democratic principle after the moral shock of the second world war. These principles appear to be no longer in vogue. My problem with a referendum is this: it's not actually very democratic. And yes, I know that sounds backwards, but that's a testament to just how well certain sinister powers have played this game. It's not democratic because to have democracy, people have to know what they're actually voting for or against. What we're going to have instead is a vote whose outcome is based on a campaign of misinformation and distortion that has lasted decades., frankly Europe won't be an issue at the next election (as much as the Europhobes would like to think it will), at least to anyone outside of the extreme Right. Like 2010 the result will be entirely down to the economy. The only reason Cameron has made an issue out of this is because he, not Miliband, is losing votes over Europe to UKIP. The trouble for Cameron is that the people deserting to UKIP keep saying that he is part of the reason they've deserted.
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cheekychops
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:27 pm

The UK don't just trade with the countries in the EU, they compete with them.

Seeing it as just a single market where protectionist barriers are broken down ignores the second part of this equation.

If the UK are selling something in France or Germany that French or German companies make, not having unfair tax on imports is one part of ensuring competition is fair. The other part, the second part of the equation, is escaping from a beggar-thy-neighbor form of trade. Countries could - and often do - compete on the basis that their labor costs are cheaper because they have a workforce with few benefits, whose rights to fight for better are curtailed. The point of things like the social chapter and working time directive is that European countries as a whole agree on standards to put a floor under the drive to the bottom. This is why the Tories hate them - with education and growth policies noticeably lacking, they want British business to compete by being "
freed of red tape imposed by Brussels"
. The people of Britain lose from this - and ultimately business will, because if the UK ends up trying to undercut other European countries then they will slap import duties on them. The sad thing is that in a referendum, people may well vote against their own best interests, given how the right-wing media will pitch the debate.
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oldun
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:13 pm

Apart from the fact that many people voting will not understand the situation and will just vote on prejudices, why go to the people anyway? Maybe the Government haven't a clue what to do so they ask the proletariat. Then it will be their fault whatever the outcome. I thought the point of a general election was to trust the chosen ones to do the job. Its just a political exercise again.
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Daisy
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Cameron wants to make people believe he is defending the interests of the British people but he is defending the interests of the London city. By putting pressure on the European institutions he tries to blackmail them so they will not regulate the London city with new rules who would prevent them continuing their casino banking. By buying and selling debts they are the only ones benefiting from the crisis. The European Union has not provided adequate solutions for the crisis but they are not the cause of the problems. The root of the financial problems can be found in the unregulated way bankers in the city and on wall street have operated in the last decades. When the EU wanted to regulate the banking world in the Lisbon treaty, the London city lobbyists started putting pressure on the government. This is the real reason why he doesn’t like the Union.
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Brian1
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:17 pm

Cameron has no idea what he has unleashed. The British people have developed a lazy and utterly uninformed antipathy toward the EU and are sleep walking into an exit without knowing it. There is no doubt in my mind that the vote will be a NO, insane as it may be and the promise of a vote will ensure an election victory for Cameron. I am sure that is in the mind of every major business leader and investor. Britain can now look forward to several years of stalled investment and transferring of business out of Britain to the EU.
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Gimp
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:58 am

Here, David Cameron doesn't really care about "
big business"
, and much less about "
the people"
. This is a band-aid for his party, whose interests he is putting first, in appeasing the fringe of his party who, in addition to withdrawal from the EU, would like caning in school and the restoration of the Empire, please. That's why this policy is fudged, that's why we will pay a price for 4 years of uncertainty (or, more likely, two, until they're kicked out or severely weakened). William Hague tried running Europe front and center at the start of the century. Why the right of the conservatives have forgotten such a resounding loss so quickly, I'll never know.
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cowshed-sarah
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PostSubject: Re: The EU and Expats   Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:54 am

won the support of Germany¿s Angela Merkel"
is stretching things a bit. Merkel's being "
willing to talk"
doesn't mean she'll cave in to Cameron - on the contrary, she'll drive a very hard bargain (assuming she doesn't reject any changes to the status quo out of hand). Germany's opposition politicians have often found to their cost that Merkel's "
willingness to talk"
is the prelude to their defeat. In the view of most German commentators (this was the big news story yesterday), the UK has already been granted plenty of concessions, and more concessions or any abandonment of the existing EU rules would be fatal to the EU. British people don't comprehend how important the EU is to the mainland countries. So major change is not going to happen. It would be considered grossly unfair by all the other members if the UK were allowed to still benefits from the Single Market without costs or restrictions while not paying its way. It won't work. Does Cameron think we a stupid, how many times have we been promised things before an election and then not got what we voted for. I hate to say it but you can never trust a politician in any country any more. Cameron knows there won't be a majority for the Conservatives at the next general election so he is safe in promising a in/out vote. Remember he is very pro euro! He is only saying what he is saying to try and get votes back from Ukip.
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